Legislature(2009 - 2010)CAPITOL 17

03/17/2009 01:00 PM House TRANSPORTATION


Download Mp3. <- Right click and save file as

* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
*+ HB 155 AUTHORIZE ECONOMIC STIMULUS PARTICIPATION TELECONFERENCED
Heard & Held
*+ HB 131 CHILD SAFETY SEATS & SEAT BELTS TELECONFERENCED
Heard & Held
+ SB 72 CHILD SAFETY SEATS & SEAT BELTS TELECONFERENCED
Heard & Held
+ Bills Previously Heard/Scheduled TELECONFERENCED
+= HB 127 ALASKA RAILROAD BUDGET TELECONFERENCED
Moved Out of Committee
HB 155-AUTHORIZE ECONOMIC STIMULUS PARTICIPATION                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
1:04:44 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR WILSON announced that the  first order of business would be                                                               
HOUSE BILL  NO. 155,  "An Act relating  to the  authorization for                                                               
the  Department  of  Transportation   and  Public  Facilities  to                                                               
participate  in the  American Recovery  and  Reinvestment Act  of                                                               
2009; and providing for an effective date."                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
1:05:31 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MIKE  BARNHILL,  Senior  Assistant Attorney  General,  Labor  and                                                               
State Affairs Section,  Department of Law (DOL),  offered that on                                                               
February 17, 2009,  President Obama signed into  law the American                                                               
Recovery and Reinvestment Act of  2009 (ARRA), referred to as the                                                               
federal  stimulus bill.   He  explained  that the  administration                                                               
decided on  a two-fold approach  to implement funding  in Alaska.                                                               
First, a  bill or  a panel of  bills would  provide authorization                                                               
for state agencies  to apply.  He opined that  state agencies are                                                               
creatures  of statute  and the  administration  wanted to  assure                                                               
state agencies had explicit legal  authority to apply for funding                                                               
from  the   federal  stimulus  bill.     Secondly,  a   panel  of                                                               
appropriations bills would identify  the funding and the specific                                                               
projects.   He  reported that  HB 155  is the  first effort  with                                                               
respect  to  the  authorization   component.    This  bill  would                                                               
authorize the  Department of  Transportation &  Public Facilities                                                               
(DOT&PF) to apply for and  participate in the funding provided by                                                               
the federal stimulus plan.                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
1:07:37 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR. BARNHILL  referred to page 2,  lines 19 to 22,  which provide                                                               
explicit authority for DOT&PF to  participate in the programs and                                                               
funding of the  federal economic stimulus bill.   He related that                                                               
the remainder  of HB  155 is intent  language. He  explained that                                                               
the intent language is intended  to track the various sections of                                                               
the federal  stimulus bill.   He referred to proposed  Section 1,                                                               
subsection  (a), that  DOT&PF would  participate  in the  funding                                                               
provided by  Title VI, P.L.  111-5 of the economic  stimulus bill                                                               
which pertains to homeland security  funding.  Each agency within                                                               
homeland security  has line  items in  the federal  stimulus bill                                                               
for which  the DOT&PF could  apply.  Subsection (b)  tracks Title                                                               
XII, P.L.  111-5 of the  federal stimulus bill, and  that section                                                               
pertains  to   programs  with  funding   provided  by   the  U.S.                                                               
Department of Transportation (U.S. DOT).   He referred to page 2,                                                               
lines  8-12, which  identify the  federal sub-agencies  that have                                                               
money available.   Finally  Subsection (c)  is an  intent section                                                               
that  expresses  that  DOT&PF  seeks  to  maximize  funding  made                                                               
available  to the  state  in  Title VI  and  XII  of the  federal                                                               
stimulus bill,  recognizing that  federal agencies may  have some                                                               
discretion  in the  manner in  which they  allocate funds  to the                                                               
states.                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
1:09:34 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR.  BARNHILL recalled  a  prior question  whether  this bill  is                                                               
necessary.   He affirmed  that is  a good  question.   He further                                                               
opined  that  DOT&PF  has  ample   authority  to  receive  funds.                                                               
However, he  allowed that  not all  state agencies  have explicit                                                               
authority,  and  the  attorney general  advises  that  this  bill                                                               
provides consistency.  He remarked  that at some point a decision                                                               
might be  made to expand  the scope of the  bill to apply  to all                                                               
agencies.                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
1:10:29 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE DOOGAN  inquired as to whether  this bill provides                                                               
the authorization to  receive funds that have  been earmarked for                                                               
Alaska  and the  DOT&PF  and/or  if this  bill  also provides  an                                                               
authorization  to  obtain  federal stimulus  funding  from  other                                                               
states that they cannot specifically use.                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
MR. BARNHILL related his understanding  that the bill would cover                                                               
both instances.  He related that  HB 155 is intended to authorize                                                               
the DOT&PF to accept federal  stimulus funding that is available.                                                               
He  further  related  his understanding  that  the  DOT&PF  could                                                               
obtain competitive  grant funds  that are  not earmarked  for the                                                               
state, and  potentially other  funds in Title  VI and  Title XII.                                                               
Thus, the DOT&PF would like to maximize its receipt of funds.                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE DOOGAN  related his understanding that  the DOT&PF                                                               
has  developed  a  list  of projects  it  anticipates  using  the                                                               
stimulus funds for  as well as a secondary list  of projects that                                                               
would be eligible  if the state received additional  funding.  He                                                               
inquired as to whether the committee  would be signing off on the                                                               
second list if HB 155 were passed.                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
1:13:16 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
FRANK RICHARDS, Deputy Commissioner,  Office of the Commissioner,                                                               
replied that HB 155 would allow  the DOT&PF to compete for funds,                                                               
including any redistribution of funds  that the DOT&PF could also                                                               
capture that that legislature has  provided authority to use.  He                                                               
related that  the governor's  bill provides  a list  of projects,                                                               
both  recommended   and  contingency  projects.     However,  the                                                               
legislature  will select  the projects  that  will ultimately  be                                                               
funded.                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE DOOGAN  related his understanding that  the DOT&PF                                                               
will have to come back to  the legislature "in another round" for                                                               
anything not in the $117 million list of projects.                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
MR.  RICHARDS explained  that the  appropriations bill  asked for                                                               
contingency  authority  necessary in  the  event  that a  project                                                               
"trips  up" to  allow the  DOT&PF can  shift to  another project.                                                               
Thus, the DOT&PF would like  the flexibility to "slip in" another                                                               
project.                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
1:15:23 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE GRUENBERG  allowed that he  is not fond  of intent                                                               
language, and inquired  as to whether subsection (a)  and (b) are                                                               
necessary.                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
MR. BARNHILL  answered no.   The language in subsections  (a) and                                                               
(b) are designed to give assurance  to the legislature that it is                                                               
the intent of the administration for  the DOT&PF to apply for all                                                               
available  funding offered  in  Title  VI and  Title  XII of  the                                                               
federal stimulus bill.                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE GRUENBERG referred  to page 2, to lines  20 to 22,                                                               
and  related his  understanding  that the  language does  exactly                                                               
what Mr. Barnhill just explained.                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
MR. BARNHILL replied yes.                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE GRUENBERG referred  to page 2, lines 13  and 15 of                                                               
subsection  (c) up  to  the  "," after  "state"  and offered  his                                                               
belief  that  language seems  to  be  important intent  language.                                                               
However,  he related  that the  language on  page 2,  lines 14-17                                                               
does not seem to be important.                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
MR. BARNHILL explained  that the idea is to put  people on notice                                                               
that the state  does not have complete control over  how the U.S.                                                               
DOT, in  particular the Federal Aviation  Administration is going                                                               
to allocate the  distribution of funds.  He  reiterated that this                                                               
alerts people that funds are  allocated subject to the discretion                                                               
of the federal agency.                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
1:17:36 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  GRUENBERG   recalled  that  the  bill   might  be                                                               
expanded to  include other agencies.   He inquired as  to whether                                                               
that is likely to happen.                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
MR. BARNHILL related  that a spectrum of options  is available to                                                               
the   administration  and   the  legislature   with  respect   to                                                               
authorization bills.   One option  is to  expand the scope  in HB
155 to provide  explicit authority to ensure  that state agencies                                                               
have the  authority to participate  in the entire  stimulus bill.                                                               
Another option is to introduce  another bill to provide authority                                                               
for  the remaining  agencies  to participate.    He offered  that                                                               
another  option  is to  not  enact  an  authorization bill.    He                                                               
surmised that  most states do  not appear to be  seeking explicit                                                               
authorization.   However, the  Alaska Supreme  Court has  held on                                                               
multiple  occasions that  state  agencies are  the "creatures  of                                                               
their  statutes"  and  they can  only  exercise  authority  found                                                               
within  the statutes.   He  opined that  the DOT&PF  statutes are                                                               
littered  with  authorization  to participate  in  federal  grant                                                               
programs.  He  opined that $100 million is  available through the                                                               
state  fiscal stabilization  fund  through  the federal  stimulus                                                               
bill  that  requires  the  governor   to  apply  for  the  funds.                                                               
However, statutes  to authorize participation are  absent.  Thus,                                                               
the  DOL   recommends  some   sort  of   explicit  authorization.                                                               
Ultimately, if  legislature does not deem  that the authorization                                                               
is necessary, the DOL "will live with that."                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
1:20:08 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  GRUENBERG  pointed  out two  competing  policies.                                                               
One, to ensure the administration  has authority to apply for the                                                               
funds.   Secondly,  he  inquired as  to  whether the  legislature                                                               
would set precedent if it  adopts language for explicit authority                                                               
now.                                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
MR.  BARNHILL opined  that  the precedent  has  already been  set                                                               
since the  DOT&PF already has  five or six statutes  that provide                                                               
authorization to participate in federal grant programs.                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE GRUENBERG asked whether  HB 155 should be expanded                                                               
to a  general authorization,  given the timeframe  of the  90 day                                                               
session.                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
MR.  BARNHILL conceded  that  the agency  might  wish to  address                                                               
this.                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE GRUENBERG  agreed he would like  other agencies to                                                               
address this also.                                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
MR. BARNHILL offered his belief that  the issues will be taken up                                                               
in the House Finance Committee.                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
1:22:07 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR WILSON stated that she would  like to review the bill as it                                                               
currently reads,  and if  another committee  would like  to amend                                                               
the bill to expand it, that they can do so.                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
1:22:18 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE JOHNSON  related that  the intent  language states                                                               
to "seek  to maximize" the  funding made available to  the state.                                                               
He expressed  concern about funding  for programs that  the state                                                               
may be  "stuck with" over time.   He conceded that  the DOT&PF is                                                               
the least  likely agency, but  maintained his  cautiousness about                                                               
establishing programs  that 18  months from  now the  state would                                                               
need to appropriate general funds.   He asked for assurances that                                                               
nothing in HB 155 mentions funding for programs.                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
MR.  BARNHILL  offered  his  belief  that  nothing  in  the  bill                                                               
mentions  program  or obtains  funding  for  program.   The  bill                                                               
simply would  permit authorization  for the  state to  apply with                                                               
intent to maximize receipt of  funds.  He recalled media articles                                                               
that  mentioned  the  governor  shares  Representative  Johnson's                                                               
views.                                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
1:23:42 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE JOHNSON referred to page  2, line 19, which reads,                                                               
"(d)  Notwithstanding any  provision  of state  law,  and to  the                                                               
extent not  already authorized  by state  law, the  Department of                                                               
Transportation &  Public Facilities is authorized  to participate                                                               
in the programs and funding enacted  by Division A, Titles VI and                                                               
XII,  P.L.  111-5  (American Recovery  and  Reinvestment  Act  of                                                               
2009)."   He  stated  that  the language  does  not restrict  the                                                               
DOT&PF and  could be a  five-year program that "we're  stuck with                                                               
after three you're  authorized under that to do this."   He asked                                                               
for clarification.                                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
1:24:40 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR. BARNHILL acknowledged  that his question is  a fair question.                                                               
He related  that the companion  bill, HB 154, identifies  all the                                                               
funding, but not  for programs since the bill  relates to capital                                                               
projects.                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  JOHNSON conceded  that  the DOT&PF  is the  least                                                               
likely department,  but also related  his understanding  that the                                                               
bill may later be expanded to  other agencies.  He maintained his                                                               
concern  for funding  programs with  stimulus funding  that might                                                               
require the  legislature to subsequently  fund them  with general                                                               
fund dollars or be forced to cut  the programs.  He said, "I want                                                               
to be on the  record that is something I don't  support.  I think                                                               
the governor  is on the  record, as well.   So  I do not  want to                                                               
inadvertently  pass  something  that  is  contrary  to  what  the                                                               
governor and I happen to share a common belief in."                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
1:25:39 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR.  BARNHILL affirmed  that he  shares Representative  Johnson's                                                               
concern, as he  believes the governor does also.   He offered his                                                               
belief  that  the  companion  bill  will  contain  language  that                                                               
suggests  funding received  under the  federal economic  stimulus                                                               
bill is one-time  funding.  He indicated that the  purpose of the                                                               
language  in  HB  155  is  to put  people  on  notice  that  this                                                               
situation is  unique and  not to expect  future funding  from the                                                               
federal government.                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  JOHNSON  inquired  as  to  whether  it  would  be                                                               
appropriate  to add  specific language  to this  bill to  further                                                               
clarify that the funding is one-time federal funding.                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
MR.  BARNHILL agreed  that specific  language could  be added  in                                                               
this committee or the bill could  be amended in the House Finance                                                               
Committee.                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
1:26:47 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE JOHNSON expressed confidence  in the House Finance                                                               
Committee.   He maintained his  concern that he does  not support                                                               
funding  future  programs  with  the  federal  economic  stimulus                                                               
funding.                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
1:27:07 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE HARRIS stressed that he  has full faith in DOT&PF.                                                               
He said he would like to  see additional maintenance funding.  He                                                               
opined  that  the crux  of  problem  is  who will  authorize  the                                                               
expenditure  of  the  funding.     He  recalled  that  under  the                                                               
constitution the  legislature is empowered to  appropriate funds.                                                               
However, he  opined that the  legislature's power is eroded  in a                                                               
variety of  ways.  He  expressed concern that  the administration                                                               
should not be  allowed to spend funds  without explicit direction                                                               
from the legislature through the appropriation process.                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
MR.  BARNHILL related  that  the  concern is  one  that has  been                                                               
expressed  to  the administration  several  times  over the  past                                                               
month.   He offered that  the administration attempts  to address                                                               
that concern by submitting the  companion appropriation bill.  He                                                               
indicated  that further  language, probably  in a  separate bill,                                                               
will  identify the  source of  funds and  how the  funds will  be                                                               
expended.    He   pointed  out  that  these   bills  reflect  the                                                               
administration's  recognition  that   the  legislature  plays  an                                                               
important  role in  exercising its  appropriation authority  over                                                               
the stimulus funds.  He said,  "And, ultimately, I think it's the                                                               
administration's hope that  there will be a meeting  of the minds                                                               
between  the administration  and the  legislature as  to how  the                                                               
economic stimulus funds  will be expended."  He  remarked that as                                                               
far as the administration can  tell, other states are not seeking                                                               
express  authorization, other  than  Washington.   He noted  that                                                               
Washington passed  its appropriation bill  two weeks ago  for the                                                               
transportation funds and that bill has  been signed into law.  He                                                               
said, "Given the  legislature's express desire to have  a role in                                                               
the expenditure of these funds,  the administration is seeking to                                                               
accommodate them."                                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
1:29:32 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE   HARRIS   offered   that    the   state   has   a                                                               
constitutional provision  that is  implicit that  the legislature                                                               
has the  authority as  the entity which  appropriates funds.   He                                                               
opined  that  the  administration  only   has  a  role  when  the                                                               
legislature  authorizes it.   He  indicated that  the legislature                                                               
has  given statutory  authority to  entities such  as the  Alaska                                                               
Railroad   Corporation  to   expend  funds   without  legislature                                                               
authorization.   He emphasized that  the administration  does not                                                               
have  that right.    He  stressed that  the  legislature has  not                                                               
denied the  administration the right  to obtain all the  money it                                                               
can get.   He recalled that the governor has  expressed she might                                                               
not want  all the money  since "strings  might be attached."   He                                                               
acknowledged  the  governor's  right  to  do  so.    However,  he                                                               
stressed  that the  administration  needs  an appropriation  bill                                                               
once  it  has  accepted  any federal  stimulus  funds  since  the                                                               
constitution mandates it.   He said, "I don't see  any reason why                                                               
we need this to  give you authorization to go get  any money.  Go                                                               
get all  you can get;  the more,  the merrier."   He acknowledged                                                               
that  some  members have  expressed  concern  some funding  might                                                               
"have strings  attached" that  attempt to bind  the state  in the                                                               
future.     He   further   opined  that   any  authorization   or                                                               
appropriations bill the moves forward  has a fiscal note attached                                                               
to define funding sources.  He  said, "And if they don't we ought                                                               
not to approve the expenditure.  That's my whole point."                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
1:31:24 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR. BARNHILL  acknowledged that is  a fair point.   He maintained                                                               
the  administration submitted  an appropriation  bill to  do just                                                               
that.   He  indicated the  reason for  HB 155  is to  ensure that                                                               
explicit authorization  is in  law for  state agencies  to apply.                                                               
He agreed  that DOT&PF  is the  least likely  agency to  need the                                                               
authority since  it has statutory  authorization.   He maintained                                                               
that other agencies do not  which is the reason for consideration                                                               
of this bill.   He further acknowledged that  the legislature may                                                               
decide  that  such state  authorization  is  not necessary.    He                                                               
highlighted that he cannot guarantee  that someone will not raise                                                               
the issue to the governor  of the state's authorization to accept                                                               
the federal  stimulus funding, which  may be an issue  that needs                                                               
to be dealt with later.                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
1:32:27 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE HARRIS  inquired as  to whether the  Department of                                                               
Health and Social Service (DHSS)  has that authorization since it                                                               
routinely receives federal funding.                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
MR. BARNHILL  said he has not  reviewed the DHSS.   He offered to                                                               
provide  that information  to the  committee.   He recalled  that                                                               
several Alaska  Supreme Court cases  suggest state  agencies need                                                               
authority to exercise their power.                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
1:33:04 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE HARRIS inquired  as to whether any  state has been                                                               
sued due to lack of authorization for federal funds.                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
MR. BARNHILL said he did not know.                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  HARRIS asked  for  clarification  of the  concern                                                               
that HB 155 would address.                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
MR. BARNHILL  reiterated that the  concern is that the  state has                                                               
authorization to  accept federal funding for  some state agencies                                                               
such as DOT&PF,  but not for all agencies.   He acknowledged that                                                               
the  bill  might address  an  overly  cautious perspective.    He                                                               
offered  that  given the  significance  of  the federal  stimulus                                                               
funding that  the approach  was that  it "would  be better  to be                                                               
cautious."  However,  if the legislature decides not  to do that,                                                               
there may not be any consequences, he stated.                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  HARRIS  highlighted  that   he  would  share  the                                                               
concern  if  the  view  was  that litigation  might  arise.    He                                                               
indicated that  he did not  want to  deny any state  agencies the                                                               
ability to  obtain federal  stimulus funds.   He related  that if                                                               
the   administration   simply   desires   to   have   a   blanket                                                               
authorization to  accept federal  funding that  he has  no issue.                                                               
However, he emphasized  that when it comes to  who authorizes the                                                               
actual  expenditure   of  the  funds,  the   legislature  is  the                                                               
authority.   He reiterated that he  does not have a  problem with                                                               
the administration  seeking blanket  funding authority  to accept                                                               
the federal stimulus funds.                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
1:35:07 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE JOHANSEN  echoed his frustration, similar  to what                                                               
Representative  Harris stated.    He  stressed the  legislature's                                                               
constitutional right  to appropriate  funds.   He said,  "I would                                                               
hope  that the  next  time  you testify  you  are  a little  more                                                               
careful  in   the  way  you   characterize  the  powers   of  the                                                               
legislature.  It's very frustrating to me."                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
1:36:48 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE DOOGAN related his  understanding that the process                                                               
is a  three part process  consisting of an  authorization process                                                               
and this bill  attempts to give extra impetus of  law, whether or                                                               
not it  is necessary  so why not  do it.   He said,  "Can't hurt,                                                               
might help."  The next process  is the expenditure process and by                                                               
constitution  the legislature  must  be involved.   Finally,  the                                                               
application  process  falls  in  between  the  authorization  and                                                               
appropriation process  in which  someone makes  a decision  as to                                                               
whether  to  apply for  the  funds.    He  surmised the  bill  is                                                               
lengthy,  the funds  are  large, and  the  programs are  diverse.                                                               
Thus,  he  inquired  as  to  how  the  administration  views  the                                                               
application decision and  what, if any, role  the legislature has                                                               
in the decisions.                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
1:38:35 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR.  BARNHILL answered  that at  the outset,  the most  important                                                               
aspect is  to have an awareness  of the programs and  the funding                                                               
sources available,  and to identify  the timelines.   He remarked                                                               
that   the  administration   must  check   the  federal   website                                                               
recovery.org  daily   to  identify   any  new   requirements  for                                                               
timelines and  application submissions.  Thus,  obtaining all the                                                               
information is the  first step.  He highlighted the  next step is                                                               
to coordinate with  state agencies to identify who  will fill out                                                               
the  application, what  information is  necessary to  support the                                                               
application, and identify projects for an appropriation bill.                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
MR. BARNHILL mentioned the  administration is currently gathering                                                               
an  extraordinary   amount  of  information.     He  related  his                                                               
understanding  that  the  information  will be  distilled  in  an                                                               
appropriation  bill of  global magnitude  for the  legislature to                                                               
consider.  He emphasized that  the administration will review all                                                               
information and will  decide whether to apply  for every program.                                                               
He acknowledged  that some  policy issues are  rising as  part of                                                               
the  information review.   He  further related  his understanding                                                               
that the  governor plans  to share the  policy concerns  with the                                                               
legislature so  it can weigh in  on them.  He  surmised that some                                                               
policy concerns  to obtain funds will  require statutory changes.                                                               
He said,  "The administration is working  as hard and as  fast as                                                               
it can  to gather  that information,  to distill  it into  a form                                                               
that  is understandable  and bring  it  to your  attention."   He                                                               
opined that this set of bills,  including HB 155, was designed to                                                               
get  the  process going,  primarily  since  the federal  stimulus                                                               
funding represents  a lot of  money.  He stated  it was a  way to                                                               
"get the ball rolling."                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
1:41:10 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE   DOOGAN  related   his  understanding   that  the                                                               
legislature  has a  larger role  than to  weigh in  on funds  the                                                               
governor may not wish to accept.   He opined that under the terms                                                               
of  the bill,  the legislature  can accept,  by joint  resolution                                                               
say, "Ah, no, we want to take the money anyway."                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
MR. BARNHILL answered, "Yes, that is exactly correct."                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  DOOGAN  asked  if  it is  the  intention  of  the                                                               
administration  to make  its  decisions not  to  accept funds  in                                                               
sufficient time  to allow  the legislature time  to decide  if it                                                               
agrees with that decision.                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
MR. BARNHILL answered yes.                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
1:42:19 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  WILSON recapped  the committee's  comments.   She  related                                                               
that the  legislature is recognizing  that some other  states are                                                               
not  taking the  same approach.    However, she  opined that  the                                                               
governor  has more  power than  any  other governor  in the  U.S.                                                               
Thus,   the   legislature   holds  jealously   its   ability   to                                                               
appropriate.  She  said, "We don't want that taken  away from us.                                                               
Those are the  facts and everyone needs to realize  that.  That's                                                               
something we really hold dear."                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
MR. BARNHILL said:                                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
     Madame  Chair,  that  point's  very  well  taken.    By                                                                    
     sharing what is going on in  other states was in no way                                                                    
     intended by  me or  the administration to  suggest that                                                                    
     we're  going in  that direction.   In  fact, quite  the                                                                    
     opposite.  We  are going in the direction  that we have                                                                    
     laid before you.   That is a two-fold  approach with an                                                                    
     authorization and an appropriation bill.                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
1:43:15 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE GRUENBERG referred to page  1, lines 9 and 12, and                                                               
page  2, lines  4 &  6, are  both to  apply for  and expend.   He                                                               
acknowledged that he did not have  a problem with "apply for" but                                                               
the expenditure could be read  as authorization for programs that                                                               
are  not  even  in  existence  now.   He  stressed  that  he  has                                                               
considerable problems with  that.  He said he  did not understand                                                               
the  necessity for  authority to  apply for  money.   He said  it                                                               
seems to  him that  the administration  can do  that anyway.   He                                                               
related  his understanding  that a  number of  states are  moving                                                               
forward to  obtain the funds anyway.   He inquired as  to whether                                                               
the  other states  have  the authority  to  expend funds  without                                                               
legislature authorization.  He said, "That's a blank check."                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR.  BARNHILL  answered  that  he cannot  comment  on  the  legal                                                               
structure  in  other states.    He  offered  to research  and  to                                                               
provide the  information at a  later time.   He pointed  out that                                                               
the language says subject to  appropriation so the intent was not                                                               
a blanket  authorization to  expend it, just  a method  to apply,                                                               
subject to appropriation.                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  GRUENBERG  answered  that  while it  may  be  the                                                               
intent, the  language is broader.   He  referred to page  2, line                                                               
21, and  stated the language  is to participate, which  he stated                                                               
is an authorization.   He opined that  normally the authorization                                                               
is held, then  the appropriation.  He said he  thought this seems                                                               
to be in place of an authorization.                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
MR. BARNHILL  reiterated that  this language  is not  intended to                                                               
authorize an appropriation.  He  suggested that the committee may                                                               
wish to  consider an  amendment to  make it clear  and he  has no                                                               
objections to an amendment.                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  GRUENBERG  stated  that   he  will  consider  the                                                               
matter.    He  recalled  Representative  Doogan's  question,  and                                                               
opined  that   nothing  requires  the  governor   to  notify  the                                                               
legislature  if  she doe  not  to  intend  to apply  for  federal                                                               
stimulus funds.   Additionally,  intent language  provides power.                                                               
He  inquired as  to whether  language should  be explicit  in the                                                               
bill  that if  the  governor does  not intend  to  apply for  all                                                               
funds, that  the legislature should  be given adequate  notice to                                                               
pass a resolution.                                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
MR. BARNHILL  offered that he  has no  objection to that  type of                                                               
amendment.  He related his  understanding that the administration                                                               
intends to  disclose exactly  what stimulus  funding it  will and                                                               
will not apply for so "cards will  be on the table and there will                                                               
not be any playing hide the ball."                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  GRUENBERG  asked  to  place  on  the  record  his                                                               
statement.   He said,  "I've known  you.  I  know you  are highly                                                               
ethical.  I know you are a very  fine attorney.  And I know there                                                               
was no intent in anything  than the highest professionalism here.                                                               
I think that I commend you and the department."                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
1:46:52 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE HARRIS  related that the legislature  could pass a                                                               
joint resolution to apply for  federal stimulus funds which would                                                               
be subject to veto.                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
MR. BARNHILL  said, "I believe that  it is.  I'm  hoping we don't                                                               
have to cross that bridge, Representative Harris."                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE HARRIS offered his  belief that any expenditure of                                                               
funds by the legislature is also subject to veto.                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
1:47:55 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  GRUENBERG  recalled   Representative  Doogan  was                                                               
suggesting a vehicle  of resolution.  He offered  his belief that                                                               
a resolution is read by the governor  but there is not a right to                                                               
veto.                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
1:48:28 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR.  BARNHILL  confessed  that  everyone  is  operating  in  some                                                               
ignorance since the federal law  recently passed.  He offered his                                                               
believe that  Representative Harris stated that  the governor has                                                               
power to veto  the appropriation.  He referred to  Section 67 (b)                                                               
of the  ARRA, which he  opined states  that if the  governor does                                                               
not certify  that she will apply  for and use funds  provided for                                                               
by the economic  stimulus bill, the legislature has  the right to                                                               
accept the funds by resolution.                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  GRUENBERG inquired  as to  whether that  would be                                                               
constitutional.    He offered  that  he  does  not need  an  oral                                                               
answer.    However,  he  pointed out  that  a  joint  resolution,                                                               
according  the Uniform  Rules, aside  from constitutional  items,                                                               
does not  direct anyone  to take  an action.   He stated  that it                                                               
simply expresses the  intent or position of the  legislature.  He                                                               
clarified that  a joint resolution is  directed externally, while                                                               
a  concurrent resolution  is normally  directed  internally.   He                                                               
highlighted that  the application  is an  issue that  is normally                                                               
outside the  scope of a  resolution.   He inquired as  to whether                                                               
the legislature  has the power,  given the separation  of powers,                                                               
or  if  the resolution  would  be  governed under  the  supremacy                                                               
clause  under  this unusual  provision  under  federal law.    He                                                               
suggested  that Mr.  Barnhill may  wish to  provide something  in                                                               
writing for the legislature.                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
1:50:26 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR.  BARNHILL  opined  that  Representative  Gruenberg  raised  a                                                               
fascinating  question.    He  deferred  answering  the  question.                                                               
However,  he  recalled  that  the   question  was  posed  to  the                                                               
Congressional  Research  Service  and  it  rendered  a  ten  page                                                               
memorandum on  the subject.   He said he  was not sure  he agreed                                                               
with it, but would provide it to the committee.                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
1:51:16 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  GRUENBERG  further  inquired as  to  whether  the                                                               
committee   could  also   obtain   a  legal   opinion  on   state                                                               
constitution with respect to the separation of powers.                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  WILSON  reiterated the  committee  was  seeking two  legal                                                               
opinions.                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
MR. BARNHILL inquired as to  whether the matter could be deferred                                                               
until the legislature faces the issue over it.                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  GRUENBERG withdrew  his  request.   He  suggested                                                               
that  the  information  from  the  Congressional  Research  would                                                               
initially suffice.                                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
1:51:59 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE JOHANSEN  inquired as  to whether  the legislature                                                               
will have sufficient time to  react to the governor's decision on                                                               
whether  to  accept the  federal  economic  stimulus funds.    He                                                               
pointed out  that only  two weeks remained  until April  3, 2009.                                                               
He inquired as  to whether the legislature  would have sufficient                                                               
time to address the matter.                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
MR. BARNHILL referred to Section 67  (b) of the ARRA, and related                                                               
that  there  is  not  a   specific  deadline.    He  related  his                                                               
understanding  that   some  people   have  speculated   that  the                                                               
legislature would have  an April 3 deadline.   However, he stated                                                               
that he  disagrees.  He asserted  that the federal ARRA  does not                                                               
have  a  deadline.    He  noted  the  administration  has  sought                                                               
guidance from the  federal Office of Management &  Budget for any                                                               
deadline.  He  offered his belief that the  governor is preparing                                                               
to disclose  what the issues are  this week.  He  maintained that                                                               
everyone is working  as fast as they can to  allow people to make                                                               
decisions.                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
1:53:34 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR.  BARNHILL, in  response to  Representative Johansen,  said he                                                               
believes  that  the  governor  will  make  decisions  this  week.                                                               
However,  he  related his  understanding  that  is the  timeframe                                                               
although he could not offer total certainty.                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
1:53:50 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR WILSON stated that she would like to hold the bill.                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
1:54:42 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE HARRIS inquired as  to whether the companion bill,                                                               
HB 154 is currently before the House Finance Committee.                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
MR.  BARNHILL  answered yes,  and  that  it  is scheduled  for  a                                                               
hearing.                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
1:54:56 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
The committee took an at-ease from 1:54 pm. to 1:55 p.m.                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
1:55:19 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE GRUENBERG  volunteered to assist in  reviewing the                                                               
language in  the bill.   He surmised that the  resolution process                                                               
was deliberate on the part of  the Congress in order to allow the                                                               
legislatures the ability  to act on the matter if  a governor did                                                               
not.    He  opined  the  real  question  is  whether  that  takes                                                               
precedence over the constitution.                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
1:55:44 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR WILSON stated that the bill would be held over.                                                                           
                                                                                                                                

Document Name Date/Time Subjects
ARRC Exec Summary.pdf HTRA 3/12/2009 1:00:00 PM
HTRA 3/17/2009 1:00:00 PM
HB 127
ARRC HB127 Commentary.pdf HTRA 3/12/2009 1:00:00 PM
HTRA 3/17/2009 1:00:00 PM
HB 127
SB72AAPSupportLetter.pdf HTRA 3/17/2009 1:00:00 PM
SB72ABINSupportLetter.pdf HTRA 3/17/2009 1:00:00 PM
SB72AkAccidentstats.pdf HTRA 3/17/2009 1:00:00 PM
SB0072B.pdf HTRA 3/17/2009 1:00:00 PM
SB72Chart.pdf HTRA 3/17/2009 1:00:00 PM
HB127 Sponsor Stmt.pdf HTRA 3/12/2009 1:00:00 PM
HTRA 3/17/2009 1:00:00 PM
HB 127
hb 131 sectional.pdf HTRA 3/17/2009 1:00:00 PM
HB 131
hb 131 backup.pdf HTRA 3/17/2009 1:00:00 PM
HB 131
hb131 sponsor stmt.pdf HTRA 3/17/2009 1:00:00 PM
HB 131
hb131 cs.pdf HTRA 3/17/2009 1:00:00 PM
HB 131
SB72OtherStates.pdf HTRA 3/17/2009 1:00:00 PM
SB72Sponsor.pdf HTRA 3/17/2009 1:00:00 PM
SB72SupportAPOA.PDF HTRA 3/17/2009 1:00:00 PM
SB72SupportLetterAADA.pdf HTRA 3/17/2009 1:00:00 PM
SB72SupportLetterPeggyHayashi.pdf HTRA 3/17/2009 1:00:00 PM
SB72SupportLetterSafeKidsAK.pdf HTRA 3/17/2009 1:00:00 PM